Never Continue Lifting Weight When You Feel Pain Bench Press Up and Down

10-26-2009, 01:57 PM

I competed at a body weight of 194 and benched 325 (usapl)...I then dropped weight and went to an IPA competition and only hit 280 in the 181 class. Now in Novemeber I have a meet and I'm struggling with 275 with a little more weight under my belt...I've considered overtraining, but I keep easing up on my workouts...with no results...I've pushed myself hard and had shoulder and elbow pain. It seems like no matter what I do the numbers just go down.

any help would be great

10-26-2009, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by Odisious View Post

I competed at a body weight of 194 and benched 325 (usapl)...I then dropped weight and went to an IPA competition and only hit 280 in the 181 class. Now in Novemeber I have a meet and I'm struggling with 275 with a little more weight under my belt...I've considered overtraining, but I keep easing up on my workouts...with no results...I've pushed myself hard and had shoulder and elbow pain. It seems like no matter what I do the numbers just go down.

any help would be great

Eat more and get your body weight back. At the end of July I weighted 165lbs and couldn't bench s**t. Decided to gain some weight, ate a lot, added about 15-16lbs and my bench skyrocketed in very short time. Go figure.

10-26-2009, 02:55 PM

You may want to try switching up your lifts if you don't do so already. so instead of flat bench...try floor press, board press, pin press or lockouts. Same motion but with a twist so your body won't adapt

10-26-2009, 03:10 PM

losing weight always hurts bench the most.

10-26-2009, 03:33 PM

Are you eating good meals? if you want to maintain the 181 class and not lose strength you need to eat a high protien diet. personally i would take a week off and then start a periodized bench routine such as ed coans routine.

10-26-2009, 05:42 PM

I cycle lockout and speed (dynamic) in and out...I can't take time off of reg flat bench because my numbers drop...at least right now I'm maintaining but I prolly could only go for a 290 press right now (bare in mind that's with a full pause and lift commands). I already have a super high protien diet...about 270 grms per day...any more and I'd ralph. If n e one can post some flat bench routines (quick ones; not 12 pgs long....I can do a search for those) that'd be great. I can't do prohos because I'd pop hot on the tests. In the mean time I'll check out Coan's routine that you talked about.

Reps for all who replied.

10-26-2009, 05:46 PM

Oh...what do you guys think of Louie Simmons and west side??? god program without gear? or no?

10-26-2009, 05:47 PM

You sound overtrained to me. I had this happen to me 2 years in a row a few years back. This is just my opinion; I suggest you take a week off from all upper body work. Cardio and legs fine. When you return to the gym, change up your workouts. Don't begin every workout with bench. Make sure you're doing bench variations, too. Close grip bench, incline, speed work (which you say you're already doing - which is great),etc. Also, very heavy tricep and shoulder presses. Other than that, I can't give you much more info cause I don't know your split, or how you train.

As someone else already said, gaining some weight back wouldn't hurt either. Hope this helps.

10-26-2009, 05:50 PM

overtrained and undereated.....

10-26-2009, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by touchofevil04 View Post

overtrained and undereated.....

yeah...gaining weight is the easiest way to up the strength but you have to remember the weight class factor...

The Ed Coan program is actually pretty nice looking...my lifting partners and I have been doing the Louie Simmons plan and it's tough on the body...
What's funny is the meet I pressed 325 at I prepped for 3 weeks out and went from 305 to 325 with full pause and lift command...I was shocked...

10-26-2009, 06:01 PM

I'm tryin' to rep everyone but I've run out...sorry to those I missed

10-26-2009, 06:27 PM

losing weight affects leverage

pain, especially bad pain, decreases CNS output.. your body isn't stupid.

10-26-2009, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by Halfway View Post

losing weight affects leverage

pain, especially bad pain, decreases CNS output.. your body isn't stupid.

so you think overtraining?
Here's my workout 285 x 3 for 5 sets, 190lbs for speed 9 reps dumbbell incline 90 x 5 for 3 sets, dumbell flys, 3 sets...champains 70 x 9 x 3sets, tri press downs 3 sets, single arm extensions 3 sets...I give chest and tris the week off from there...

10-26-2009, 06:43 PM

Too much volume at once. Cut the flies. Split up your heavy and speed/volume days. Or if do the Coan. I had success with it, I moved from 390 to 410 but didn't attempt an actual max.

10-26-2009, 07:29 PM

Originally Posted by Link815 View Post

Too much volume at once. Cut the flies. Split up your heavy and speed/volume days. Or if do the Coan. I had success with it, I moved from 390 to 410 but didn't attempt an actual max.

i tried splitting speed and max effort...had adverse affects...
one thing about coan is he's really only doing two working sets...thats appealing...aspecially with such high volume.

i have a meet in 4 weeks...for those who've competed, how would u proceed?

10-26-2009, 08:00 PM

Originally Posted by Odisious View Post

i tried splitting speed and max effort...had adverse affects...
one thing about coan is he's really only doing two working sets...thats appealing...aspecially with such high volume.

i have a meet in 4 weeks...for those who've competed, how would u proceed?

I feel like you're missing the point if you say that you regress by not always doing flat bench, and that you don't gain from splitting speed and max effort.
As Link mentioned, ditch the flyes. And add back work.
If you're splitting ME and DE you should still be doing them each in a week, and you rotate exercises on both - this will help with overtraining, but you can still do the accessories twice a week without overtraining.

What were your workouts like before you switched to what you're doing now.

And for a meet in 4 weeks, just up your intensity on max effort, taper your volume and accessories, and then rest the week before!

10-27-2009, 05:16 PM

[QUOTE=koyongi;402392331]I feel like you're missing the point if you say that you regress by not always doing flat bench, and that you don't gain from splitting speed and max effort.
As Link mentioned, ditch the flyes. And add back work.
If you're splitting ME and DE you should still be doing them each in a week, and you rotate exercises on both - this will help with overtraining, but you can still do the accessories twice a week without overtraining.

What were your workouts like before you switched to what you're doing now.

And for a meet in 4 weeks, just up your intensity on max effort, taper your volume and accessories, and then rest the week before![/QUOTE

What point am I missing???? I'm just saying what's happened to me in my experience thus far.
I like your advice about tapering support wilst increasing volume.......Ever since our first competition We've been doing the Louie Simmons West Side routines of 3 reps for 6 - 8 sets...before that I really had a body building routine where I would do 3 sets of bench for like 8 reps...Since switching to power my numbers have gone a little stagnant. I wish I had a clearer explanation of what over training is like...I know the deffinition, but who can kinda coach me of the physical and mental feelings/experiences of it??

10-27-2009, 06:17 PM

Sept 12 w/ 1nzer Blast sh1rt 270lb Muscle Beach CA contest
Oct 21 raw w/ (sponge bob) [blue foam pad[ Bench 295lb easy long pause, 305lb m1ss
Max Effort days
3 weeks 2 board bench
1 week 1 board
2 weeks foam pad

for deta1ls check out my blog
focused on st1ckng po1nt: bottom - h1gh rep dumbbell bench

Originally Posted by Odisious View Post

Oh...what do you guys think of Louie Simmons and west side??? god program without gear? or no?

10-27-2009, 09:43 PM

Originally Posted by Odisious View Post

What point am I missing???? I'm just saying what's happened to me in my experience thus far.
I like your advice about tapering support wilst increasing volume.......Ever since our first competition We've been doing the Louie Simmons West Side routines of 3 reps for 6 - 8 sets...before that I really had a body building routine where I would do 3 sets of bench for like 8 reps...Since switching to power my numbers have gone a little stagnant. I wish I had a clearer explanation of what over training is like...I know the deffinition, but who can kinda coach me of the physical and mental feelings/experiences of it??

well since you're not using the conjugate method anywhere near correctly, no wonder you didn't make any gains when doing an ME/DE split.

you are not doing westside. the sets and reps are not the program. are you using accommodation? controlling your volume to allow equal recovery and growth? are you backing up your bench workouts with proper assistance movements to bring up your weaknesses and address imbalances? you say you're doing 6-8 sets of 3 reps for your bench, are you focusing on speed on those days? if you're doing them heavy you are not correctly implementing the conjugate system as programmed by Westside. If you're doing two heavy bench days, with relatively heavy volume no wonder you're going backwards.

I would definitely point towards your training and recovery as the culprits, you are likely throwing MORE work at an overtrained lift. that's the fastest way to go downhill.

stop everything, deload for a week, then come back with a systematic approach to your training and you'll like see improvement.

10-28-2009, 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by isaku900 View Post

well since you're not using the conjugate method anywhere near correctly, no wonder you didn't make any gains when doing an ME/DE split.

you are not doing westside. the sets and reps are not the program. are you using accommodation? controlling your volume to allow equal recovery and growth? are you backing up your bench workouts with proper assistance movements to bring up your weaknesses and address imbalances? you say you're doing 6-8 sets of 3 reps for your bench, are you focusing on speed on those days? if you're doing them heavy you are not correctly implementing the conjugate system as programmed by Westside. If you're doing two heavy bench days, with relatively heavy volume no wonder you're going backwards.

I would definitely point towards your training and recovery as the culprits, you are likely throwing MORE work at an overtrained lift. that's the fastest way to go downhill.

stop everything, deload for a week, then come back with a systematic approach to your training and you'll like see improvement.

I took the 6-8 sets of 1-3 sets straight from Louie's Video...Training Secrets of WSB.
I'm think I've shown I'm up for criticism, but you just gave me 3 paragraphs and the only thing I can apply to my training and life is "take a week off and come back with a systematic approach."O' Rllllllly?? I'm thirsty for more...how about a routine cycle, or a web reference?

10-28-2009, 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by Odisious View Post

I took the 6-8 sets of 1-3 sets straight from Louie's Video...Training Secrets of WSB.
I'm think I've shown I'm up for criticism, but you just gave me 3 paragraphs and the only thing I can apply to my training and life is "take a week off and come back with a systematic approach."O' Rllllllly?? I'm thirsty for more...how about a routine cycle, or a web reference?

you took only the rep schema from WSB, you took NONE OF THE OTHER STUFF THAT GOES INTO MAKING IT WORK.

so no, i'm not going to do all your homework for you, how about you sit down, go to www.westside-barbell.com and READ EVERYTHING.

learn something, then try to put together a program.

edit: y'know it wouldn't bother me so much if you did the bare minimum due diligence before asking everyone on the forum to write a program for you.

I mean its not like strength coaches/personal trainers charge hundreds of dollars for programming...oh wait, they do...........

10-28-2009, 05:10 PM

Originally Posted by isaku900 View Post

you took only the rep schema from WSB, you took NONE OF THE OTHER STUFF THAT GOES INTO MAKING IT WORK.

so no, i'm not going to do all your homework for you, how about you sit down, go to www.westside-barbell.com and READ EVERYTHING.

learn something, then try to put together a program.

edit: y'know it wouldn't bother me so much if you did the bare minimum due diligence before asking everyone on the forum to write a program for you.

I mean its not like strength coaches/personal trainers charge hundreds of dollars for programming...oh wait, they do...........

Not to undermine what you said, but charging for programming is the stupidest **** i have ever heard of. Not only is there a metric ****-ton of information available on the internet, but no matter how good the program is, it still depends on the hard work of the lifter to make it work, as well as a high level knowledge about their body/what they respond to/how the feel that day/weak points/etc.

10-28-2009, 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by isaku900 View Post

you took only the rep schema from WSB, you took NONE OF THE OTHER STUFF THAT GOES INTO MAKING IT WORK.

so no, i'm not going to do all your homework for you, how about you sit down, go to www.westside-barbell.com and READ EVERYTHING.

learn something, then try to put together a program.

edit: y'know it wouldn't bother me so much if you did the bare minimum due diligence before asking everyone on the forum to write a program for you.

I mean its not like strength coaches/personal trainers charge hundreds of dollars for programming...oh wait, they do...........

I don't want a program written for me...I was just saying that telling me to take a week off and coming back with a systematic approach isn't giving me any info...that's what I'm here for...I opened myself up...what I really want, and judging from your pics and profile, you would know a lot about is overtraining...tell me about that, again...I know the definition, but what does it FEEL like physically and mentally, how do you know when you've recovered and are ready to continue...

10-28-2009, 05:31 PM

Originally Posted by touchofevil04 View Post

overtrained and undereated.....

this plus you have to realize that when you lose weight, you lose size. now the bar has to travel a bit further. Kind of like doing a one board press then going without a board. Think of the higher body weight as boards. as you lose weight, you lose boards.

10-28-2009, 05:33 PM

The other thing that I need everyone to be clear on is that I am not on any gear or prohormones, AT ALL, before you talk about west side with me, realize that Louie himself said you really need to be on the juice if you're going to last with a westside program. This is my second USAPL meet and one thing about USAPL is even if your on tribulus you'll pop hot. ......I compete totally raw as well...puts another small damper on west side's training....I guess I'm leaning more toward Ed Coan's routines, unless someone can give me realistic points and examples for other stuff.

10-28-2009, 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by Iceman1800 View Post

this plus you have to realize that when you lose weight, you lose size. now the bar has to travel a bit further. Kind of like doing a one board press then going without a board. Think of the higher body weight as boards. as you lose weight, you lose boards.

that's a great point...how do I overcome this if I wanna stay 181 class?

reps

10-28-2009, 05:39 PM

Originally Posted by Odisious View Post

that's a great point...how do I overcome this if I wanna stay 181 class?

reps

just keep getting stronger. not much you can do except keep busting butt in the gym. And you do not have to use AAS to use westside. The only change you would make is instead of switching max effort exercises each week, do one for 3 weeks at a shot and keep the protein intake high.

10-28-2009, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by Ka0s View Post

Not to undermine what you said, but charging for programming is the stupidest **** i have ever heard of. Not only is there a metric ****-ton of information available on the internet, but no matter how good the program is, it still depends on the hard work of the lifter to make it work, as well as a high level knowledge about their body/what they respond to/how the feel that day/weak points/etc.

it takes a lot of work, time and effort to understand a lifter's body and how to program the most effective training for them.

this is what strength coaches are HIRED for, and/or what personal trainers (for athletes) charge for.

I don't do my own programming, I don't know enough and frankly as much as I've read I still don't have that knack for effective programming, which is why I listen to my coach.

Which is why everyone at BIG listens to Rick Hussey...

and this forum is ample evidence that most people cannot effectively program their own training.

Originally Posted by Odisious View Post

I don't want a program written for me...I was just saying that telling me to take a week off and coming back with a systematic approach isn't giving me any info...that's what I'm here for...I opened myself up...what I really want, and judging from your pics and profile, you would know a lot about is overtraining...tell me about that, again...I know the definition, but what does it FEEL like physically and mentally, how do you know when you've recovered and are ready to continue...

well...I train smart so I don't know what it feels like physically and mentally, can't help you there.

10-28-2009, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by isaku900 View Post

it takes a lot of work, time and effort to understand a lifter's body and how to program the most effective training for them.

this is what strength coaches are HIRED for, and/or what personal trainers (for athletes) charge for.

I don't do my own programming, I don't know enough and frankly as much as I've read I still don't have that knack for effective programming, which is why I listen to my coach.

Which is why everyone at BIG listens to Rick Hussey...

and this forum is ample evidence that most people cannot effectively program their own training.

well...I train smart so I don't know what it feels like physically and mentally, can't help you there.

geez...sorry
I thought folks had brighter personalities out in CA

10-28-2009, 06:16 PM

if you want to train westside, read all you can find at least twice. main points of it are to push max effort days to a max and speed days are for speed. As obvious as it sounds, this is why most fail. They don't push hard enough on max days and use too much weight on speed days resulting in no speed. find the basic westside template and use it for 6-8 weeks. by then you should be able to determine your weak points so you can do assistance work to bring them up to snuff. IMHO, almost every training program will make a person stronger if they put out the effort required and aren't afraid to lift heavy weight and give it the time it takes for the program to work.

Never Continue Lifting Weight When You Feel Pain Bench Press Up and Down

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